Now, *That* Is Playing Hardball

Proof that even a broken clock is right twice a day...

Earlier this week, Chris Matthews had former Pentagon spokeswoman Torie Clarke on 'Hardball' to promote her new book. After discussing the cartoon controversy, the conversation turned to the war in the Iraq and the "sales job" used to start it. Matthews really ripped into her and refused to let her spew her revisionist history of how we went to war. Chris Matthews may be a clueless douchebag most of the time, but on this particular evening, he was on fire. The transcript-

MATTHEWS: Here‘s something closer to home, this is the question of America‘s support for the war America‘s fighting, largely, with the coalition of the willing. Right now the latest poll we have is a week old, I don‘t think things have changed.

Removing Saddam Hussein, in other words, going into Iraq to change the regime there, by force, was it worth it? Forty-two percent. This is the NBC poll. Forty-eight percent not worth it. So the plurality of people right now after all things are considered right now, looking at everything, don‘t think the war is worth it.

CLARKE: I‘m not surprised. I don‘t necessarily agree with them, but I‘m not surprised. Look, this war has been difficult from the very, very beginning. If you go back to the months leading to the start of the war, end of 2002, beginning of 2003, there was not a lot of public support for going to war with Iraq, even with most people thought they had weapons of mass destruction. For some very good reasons.

We had lived in this wonderful world for a long time, blessed by unique geography and good neighbors where we would say we‘re not going to whack you, we‘re not going to cause any trouble unless you whack us first and then we‘ll really go after you. Afghanistan, people got it.

Iraq will be the first truly preemptive action in a long, long time. That‘s a tough hurdle. People who wanted to do harm to our friends and allies and to ourselves.

MATTHEWS: What‘s that mean?

CLARKE: It means people who want to kill us.

MATTHEWS: Do you think Iraq was a threat to the United States?

CLARKE: I do. Because we live if a world in which individuals, not massive armies, navies, air forces, individual can do great catastrophic harm and there are different players in that world and Iraq was one of the centerpieces of destabilization, of mixing and mingling with terrorists of all sizes and shapes.

They had demonstrated their ability and desire to use weapons of mass destruction in the past, they had demonstrated their intent. It was the right decision at the time. But back to your question.

MATTHEWS: I have heard this argument so long and I think that argument, at the time, could have been used against Pakistan, it could be used against Saudi Arabia.

There are so many governments in that part of the world who do us harm by the way they let their children be educated, by the kind of culture they instill in people, the hatred that they allow, not just against Israel but against the west.

There‘s so many forces out there. Former Soviet engineers with a tremendous capability to sell, out of economic desperation, weaponry that can be used by terrorists. I think Iraq would have been the least likely source of nuclear technology for someone who wanted to get their hands on it. Least likely source, and I don‘t hear the argument to the contrary.

All the arguments about W.M.D. have been shot down. No evidence of an African deal, no evidence involving aluminum tubes. All the arguments that your side put up to get us into this war have been shot down, especially the argument that we were going to be received by people who are going to be happy to see us. They are fighting us. They are not happy to see us. That the oil in America was going to be cheaper. That the oil was going to pay for the war itself.

You‘re crowd made every argument in the world to get us in that war, and then they all quit. What I can‘t understand is how an administration packed with hawks, they are all gone. Scooter is facing jail. Wolfowitz is gone. I don‘t know what else is gone, but all the hawks seem to be gone now.

You‘re not there now backing the war.

CLARKE: Eighteen things in that two minute rant. So let‘s address a few pieces of it. Let‘s address a few important pieces of this and let‘s go back to the original point about public support. But let‘s go back to what happened.

Colossal, humongous, terrible Intel failure. Now, you can change your opinion now. You can say those arguments don‘t hold up now, but back then the debate was not about whether or not they had weapons of mass destruction. It was what to do about it.

MATTHEWS: The casualties are real. The hatred against us around the world for going to war are real. All the arguments to get us in the war have been shot down Torie.

CLARKE: No.

MATTHEWS: It was a great sales job. And it worked and we got into the war. And people now know that the arguments used to get us in the war, the carrot and the stick, were not true.

CLARKE: No, I disagree completely.

MATTHEWS: Where was I wrong in my rant?

CLARKE: I disagree completely. Because the evidence at the time all pointed to it, them having weapons of mass destruction and having the desire and intent to use. The French, the Russians, the Germans, who felt as strongly against the war as you did...

MATTHEWS: They didn‘t go to war. They didn‘t go to war.

CLARKE: ...never disagreed that they had weapons of mass destruction.

It was all about what we do about it. But let‘s go back to public support.

MATTHEWS: The American tradition is to use the Department of Defense and the American fighting men and women to defend this country against dangers to this country not to fight wars of elections, wars of choice, as you call it a preemptive war. Every country in the world could fight a preemptive war and argue the case you made.

Thank you, Torie, for coming on this show.

Ms. Clarke was shocked to hear such reality in the midst in her publicity tour. Poor girl.

[Crooks and Liars has video.]